are gold coins considered tangible personal property

Although Dave's post is concise and to the point, which is helpful (thank you, Dave), I have also found Chris's and Dennis's insights helpful as well. Exactly how the law is written. When the charity in question calls the donation "like kind" property the statement has no meaning. Gift annuity funded with gold bullion We have Congressional intent. Of course, you said, "bull," which just goes to show you didn't see the link between OP's coins and 408(m)and you didn't fully understand the true nature of OP's coins. on the income tax issue (realization) treats it as tangible personal property. He even wrote an article on it about a year ago, give or take. If the property is sold in the first year, the charitable deduction is reduced to basis. Amortization vs. Depreciation: What's the Difference? The bullion value at the time of the donation is 40K and the charitable organization immediately sells the coins (unrelated use for the charity) . Under the appraisal method, an appraiser is hired to determine the true fair market value of a company's assets. If you treat as "money," you run the risk of being able to deduct their face value. I'm afraid you will not find one, which leaves the issue unresolved. It's pretty well settled that foreign currency is treated as personal property under the tax code. Contact Us: You want your 12 cent dime to be money, put it in an account and add 10 cents to your balance. Not that it matters, because we have the "for purposes of" language in the ruling. But that's only because the cases didn't need to. Yeah, me too. The article involved realization only and took no position on anything. Per Rev Rul 69-63 the IRS ruled that gold coins that do not have any numismatic value are more akin to money that therefore are not considered tangible personal property for donation purposes. In most states, a business that owned tangible property on January 1must file a tax return form with the property appraisal office no later than April 1in the same year. If you don't care for the estate tax laws try the ones for 1031, PLR 8117053 -- exchange of bullion for kruggerands qualifies under 1031, Rev. Share sensitive information only on official, secure websites. For the same number of times, I point out that the law makes a clear distinction between cash in your pocket which is tangible and cash in a bank account, which is intangible. It qualifies for a 1031 exchange with gold bullion. And note, the RR *didn't* say, "the coins can be felt and touched, so they are tangible personalty property.". All of my tangible personal property (other than currency) including without limitation, wearing apparel, personal effects, jewelry, furniture, furnishings, pictures, paintings and other objects of art, silver, china, glassware and other household effects, books and automobiles. Definition and How It Works, What Is a Fixed Asset in Accounting? Possession of certain items are considered to be strict liability crimes that carry severe penalties. ) or https:// means youve safely connected to the official website. Yah I read that one (at least some of including the section on coins, anyway). Julia Kagan is a financial/consumer journalist and senior editor, personal finance, of Investopedia. Collectibles are taxed as capital gains or losses similar to stocks and bonds but with one very important exception. Is money considered tangible personal property? And, I'm also smart enough to know that OP's client has a pretty good case to make some waves with this issue. A tangible asset is an asset that has a finite, transactional monetary value and usually a physical form. All personal property located in residence. If we did, Dennis, we have a realization event every time there was inflation or deflation - you know, as purchasing power changes. Discussion Forum Index --> Advanced Tax Questions --> Donation of Gold Coins, Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Donation of Gold Coins. Good question. Of course, the word "money" isn't defined in the Tax CodeI made that point too, Dennis, but maybe you missed it. In fact, 43 states use an appraised TPP value when calculating state taxes on personal property, business . PLR 9225036 is the only relevant guidance here. So, I pointed to the one place in the IRC when there's a relevant reference to Gold - Sec 408 - wherein the gold coins at issue (I'm pretty sure) were carved out as not being treated as a collectible. Actually, the law isn't written, because money isn't defined anywhere. But I don't think the Regs contemplated newly minted, U.S. gold coins. Experienced Estate Planning Attorney, Elga A. Goodman, can help you with all your estate planning needs. New interpretations abound. In these cases, the county will also provide a valuation table that can be used to estimate the value of the property based on its age and useful life. Shares in a specific gold mining company or in an ETF that invests in them are considered securities for tax purposes, like shares in any publicly-traded company. Even though an ETF share is just paper (or more likely just bytes), it represents ownership of the metal itself and that's enough to make it a collectible for tax purposes. Therefore, the Will should make clear what the intent is concerning the distribution of the box and the items in the box. Medium size and motorized boats usually require registration with the State. And, you can change your mind about who will receive the coins as often as you like. Likewise, I wouldn't bet the farm on your "out of context" estate tax rulings, as I mentioned above. What you're trying to do, Dennis, is apply the OP's facts of "non-rare coins with no collector's value" to an RR that involves "rare coins and collector's value." There is tangible personal property which would include cars, household goods, personal effects, guns, coin collections etc. Typical items include clothing, jewelry, art, musical instruments, writings, furnishings and other household goods. Depreciable property is an asset that is eligible for depreciation treatment in accordance with IRS rules. If you want to see the fallacy of "more akin to appreciated stock" check out the treatment of a donation of units in a publicly traded ETF holding gold bullion. Trustee compensation should be specified. We refinanced. That which may be felt or touched, and is necessarily corporeal, although it may be either real or personal (eg ring or watch)." Stock, real estate, inventory, taxidermy property, patents, partial interests, self-created, etc. You conveniently left out of the parts about (1) the coins being rare and (2) the coins acquiring value as collector's items. Rul. Because (1) they're more like stock held for long term appreciation than they are like a painting [i.e. Gold coins and gold bullion are considered collectibles for tax purposes. Finding a qualified financial advisor doesnt have to be hard. The coins in the RR did take on collector's value and this is why the RR made mention of it. The Federal Gun Control Act imposes additional restrictions on certain weapons, including assault weapons, plastic guns, machine guns, armor piercing bullets and body armor. While publicly-traded securities have fared poorly over the last decade, the skyrocketing demand for gold in the face of a static supply has caused gold prices to rise dramatically. The meaning of "but instead" is clear. If your city or county assesses personal property taxes, they may require that you submit a disclosure of your property. What exactly does "legal tender" have to do with the issue? Settled law when it comes to estate taxation. So, if your county taxes your personal motor vehicles each year, your tax bill will be based on the perceived market value of the vehicle. McNamee Hosea Use SmartAssets property tax calculator to better understand the average cost of property taxes in your state and county. Just an observation. How about finding a source that thinks the PLR *wouldn't* be affirmed? Software as a Service. I do realize, however, that the case law, etc. Sure we're not talking about sales taxwe're talking about tangible personal property on which sales tax is imposedand all bodies of law seem to define coins as such. . The mere fact that there are cases wherein people have used these coins to make asset acquisitions bear it out: That these coins are circulating. The Federal National Firearms Act governs machine guns, sawed off guns, silencers, mortars and pen guns. 31 USC 5103 specifically states that foreign coins are not considered legal tender in the U.S. You know, an actual ruling - or case - involving U.S. legal tender gold coins given as a donation. A completely closed mind. So, that's all I know. Tangible property is property which occupies physical space. b) FMV is higher than basis Sometimes, however, it isnt clear whether or not an item falls under the definition oftangible personal property. On the day he contributes the gold to your charity its value is $161,500. Real property, or real estate, is tangible property that is immovable. These assets can be held by both individuals and corporations. Tangible personal property is always depreciated . Investopedia does not include all offers available in the marketplace. You dont want your bequests to result in disputes among your heirs or in court proceedings because the items were not gifted in a legally correct manner. Also, because the coins have both intrinsic and marketable value, in and of themselves, they cannot be considered intangible property, without more. A ruling on the Canadian Maple Leaf does not apply to US minted gold coins If your point is that the ruling is totally on point, to newly minted coins, and therefore, should be extended to newly minted coins, yet doesn't contemplate newly minted coins because there were no newly minted coins in existence at the time of the Ruling, then it's a safe bet the Ruling doesn't draw a conclusion on newly minted coins that are legal tenderbut only on "rare" coins that existed at the time of the Ruling and that were the subject of the Ruling. Suppose that instead of contributing the bullion outright, Mr. Franklin contributed it in exchange for a gift annuity. Security & Privacy | The examples below illustrate a gift of gold bullion, but apply equally to a gift of gold coins (taking the position that gold coins are tangible personal property) and shares of ETFs invested in gold bullion. As usual, we are a bit ahead of our time here on TA. The owner purchases shares in a company that is mining gold, rather than gold itself, with the expectation that the mining company and its share price (or the share price of the ETF that invests in such companies) will prosper when the price of gold goes up. Those were the good old days. Is a coin collection considered to be cash or personal property (state if MA, if that makes a difference) Ask an Expert Ask a Lawyer Estate Law DISCLAIMER: Answers from Experts on JustAnswer are not substitutes for the advice of an attorney. The copyright for the song, though, is considered . The property type doesn't matter. Implication being, maybe these coins are treated as money. Argument can be made that they're "money" under the tax code, since case law brings up "circulating" as a critical distinction between "money" and "property other than money." In general, tangible personal property consists of items such as jewelry, personal property, personal effects, family heirlooms, and other physical items. Depending on the item, the nature of your business, when the item was purchased and other factors, you may be taxed on the fair market value of your TPP. Tangible property is physical assets such as collectible coins, jewelry, military medals, stamps, antiques, savings bonds or other physical items. ******************** ("Company") intends to sell gold coins for delivery to Massachusetts purchasers. Is his deduction still only 10 cents? A .mass.gov website belongs to an official government organization in Massachusetts. And, the stuff in 31 USC 5112 probably includes the coins described by the OP. This is a bullion coin. These coins are minted by the Republic of South Africa, and each coin contains exactly one ounce of gold. 2008). I knew they'd fit in there, hence my bet. He can then donate the same value but get favorable tax treatment under the PLR. Even though an ETF share is just paper (or more likely just bytes), it represents ownership of the metal itself and thats enough to make it a collectible for tax purposes. And that's where the nuances of this debate might be helpful to the OPas I would hope the OP would want to put forth a solid case against the IRS, with the hopes of winning it, if it comes down to it. The Will may also provide for equalizing distributions of cash from the estate so that if one beneficiary receives the decedents expensive jewelry or a vehicle, the other beneficiaries could receive cash from the estate so that each beneficiary inherits equally. In addition, Dave was speaking to DAJ's comment, which immediately preceding his: I had found a few of the articles linked herein. The term tangible personal property is generally understood to mean items that can be felt or touched. Tangible personal property means: articles of personal or household use or ornament, for example, furniture, furnishings, automobiles, boats, airplanes, and jewelry, as well as precious metals in any tangible form, for example, bullion or coins. Intangible property. Yes, case law didn't foresee the U.S. getting back into the Gold Minting business, and yes, the judges made this whole "circulating" thing up to begin withand, in the first case dealing with these newly minted coins (. If you guys are thinking, "Dennis seems to be focusing on the status quo and ignoring the fact that the U.S. has started minting gold coins again," you would be right. If its deemed to be tangible personal property, then you can just gift it via a separate list, without the need for witnesses or a notary. As with the gift annuity, a charitably-minded Mr. Franklin who is interested in augmenting his cash flow might be attracted to a gift arrangement that allows him to dispose of a volatile yet highly appreciated asset, pay no immediate tax on his gain, receive income from all proceeds of selling his bullion, and make a generous gift to charity. Any other tangible personal property that the IRS determines is a "collectible" under IRC Section 408 (m). You might not care for State sales tax law but the consistent use of this language has to have meaning. Tangible personal property (TPP) comprises property that can be moved or touched, and commonly includes items such as business equipment, furniture, and automobiles. Holding purpose might matter too. Wills often contain trusts for the benefit of younger or disabled persons. In this case, the donor could deduct the full fair market value of the coins. Often, these items are of relatively little monetary value, but of great sentimental worth. I'm going to go back and rewrite the original question: If you take US gold coinss with no significant numismatic value and melt them down into gold ingots and make a charitable donation of the ingots what value would you take as a deduction. The charity, of course, will need to file a Form 8282 if it sells the bullion or ETF shares within three years of receiving the gift, which almost certainly it would. And the law hasn't quite caught up to this new paradigm. The ability to document ownership and origination of ivory heirlooms may be extremely important to provide to the executor of ones estate and to the beneficiaries. However, if these items are reproduced without modification, they are considered tangible personal property and subject to sales or use tax. Why would you think the exchange is taxable? It is treated as "money," despite what Dennis thinks. But, if I actually had an opinion on it, it would be this: Using face value for realization purposes smells bad, so the courts made up a test to deny such treatment. Household furnishings, books, tools, jewelry, motor vehicles and boats are some of the items which fall into the category of tangible personal property. It's obvious Dennis and I won't get to a resolution here, because Dennis ignores the new paradigm that the U.S. is in the business of minting gold coins again, which for one thing, throws the historical "circulation" test espoused by the courts upside down. Posted in: Estate Administration, Estate Planning, Probate, Wills, document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) E.A. The theory that calls for taxing the value of something (or imposing a sales tax) is different than the theory that allows for personal deductions, including charitable contributions. We go by face value. Personal property comes in two forms. They are not equivalent to money, meaning their face value. Tangible personal property values are taken into account for both personal and business tax purposes. Identifying ones unique assets and carefully considering how best to distribute ones tangible personal property helps to avoid disputes among ones beneficiaries. The only states that exclude tangible personal property from taxation altogether are: The process of levying taxes on tangible personal property varies wildly from one state to the next, and may even vary between different counties and local municipalities. Examples of tangible physical property include automobiles, furniture, jewelry, computers, machinery, art objects, rugs, dishes, curtains, household appliances and tools. Tangible personal property is everything other than real estate that has value by itself. That is code specific. They should know, eh? Tangible personal property taxes are typically assessed at the state level, though they may be dictated by county, city or local municipality. Aaah, maybe the IRS thinks *this* type of "personalty" is different than *other* types of "personalty" so they apply a special rule to it. Dennis says, "bull," however. So, estate jewelry, and coins, and the like are what's called "tangible personal property" in estate planning. In lieu of establishing a pet trust, a gift of the pet together with cash may be made to an individual who promises to accept care of the pet as a condition for receiving the cash gift. The problem with gold coins, and the ones in question, is that they are authorized legal tender with a face value. This is because this type of property usually does not increase in value over the years. So, by this definition, such a good coin wouldn't be a collectiblemaybe wouldn't be "property other than money," leading one to conclude that it might be money. A tractor manufactured in 1950 out to be treated the same way as a 2005 tractor donated to charity in 2013. What are tangible items in a will? Foreign currency is not "money". Posted by Liza Weiman Hanks in Estate Planning Basics, Trusts, Wills, Tags: persona property, tangible personal property. This charity gives out tax advice, or something like that. If you turn a $10 face vlaue gold coin in to the Federal Reserve, they'll give you a $10.00 Federal Reserve Note (i.e. If I do work for a client and get paid with a Koala Bear, a car, gold coins, a piano, a house, a computer, or whatever, it's taxable. You keep ignoring your own 408 citation. (I've already said this). Tangible personal property is anything other than real property (land and building) that is used in the operations of a business or rental property. We'd like to know about Section 170. Proper registration can require the new owner to obtain signature of chief law enforcement officers. Pets Ones pets are considered to also be tangible personal property. What is Tangible Personal Property? I think that's a more complete scenario. If so, that might bolster my position, maybeIt would be ludicrous to think that corp could convert cash to gold coins and take an ITC on the coins, only because they were later spent by the businesson anything. The amount directed into trust should be reasonable and a court may assume jurisdiction over the trust and reduce the amount if considered to be unreasonable. But if you want to apply it, go ahead. Point is taken. They are still tangible personal property. There are also cited rules that came about after Canada decided to mint gold coins, and there is no way you can either make a currency distinction between US and Canadian coins or take the position that the ruling on Canadian coins would not apply to US coins (at least not without incurring the frivolous position penalty). This is especially true when the beneficiaries of ones residuary estate are intended to be different than the beneficiaries of ones tangible personal property. I just don't think that gold coins, minted by the United States, necessarily constitute "tangible personal property" for purposes of Section 170 of the Code. Logically, the donation should be treated like a donation of appreciated stockI'd treat it that way for deduction purposes, but I'd jump through all the appraisal hoops, reporting hoops, etc., as if it were tangible personalty instead. Examples Maybe you're getting mixed up, Dennis. Thus they appear to be USC Title 37 5112(a)(7) coins. c) Carries no numismatic value.". Further, coins bear similarities to money and also to property other than money. In addition, the position described above is inconsistent with the reality that when sold the gain in Krugerrands (and other gold coins), gold bullion, and shares in ETFs that invest in gold bullion is taxed as if they are tangible personal property." The central question here is whether American Eagle gold bullion coins, having no numismatic value, donated to a charity, are tangible personal property for purposes of IRC 170(e)(1)(B) that limits the charitable contribution deduction to the donors cost basis. Gotcha. But, the minute we move into Sec 170, the property type does matter. If the issue is unresolved it would be only because no-one wants to try your method and face the preparer penalties. I would think closer to behind the eight ball, but I certainly don't disagree that the PLR can be relied on to avoid penalties. It is obvious that the IRS has had some trouble with it too. a) Held over one year. Your gift is tax deductible to the extent allowed by law" and let it go at that. The Canadian Maple Leaf is "money" It has a defined currency value. We have a basis of 12 cents and a value of 15 cents. Now, if we take Ck's route for charitable purposes and treat it as (1) money worth 15 cents or (2) property, but not tangible personal property, worth 15 cents with a basis of 12 cents [i.e. Any new business-owning tangible property on January 1must file an initial tax return on the property. You persist in missing my point. I tend to think an American gold coin, legal tender, like the OP's gold coin, is more akin to an appreciated stock than a painting. Reg. It does not include copyrights, patents, and other intellectual property that is generated or developed (rather than acquired) under an award. f. Manufactured or mobile homes purchased in or delivered from another . I do wonder though, why a stock certificate is not treated as tangible personalty. An ounce of gold sells today for about five times what it sold for ten years ago. $0.00. There is a strong case to be made that these coins are not "property" and therefore, cannot be "tangible personal property." It's money for crying out loud. All rights reserved. Items that are considered tangible personal property can be depreciated over five or seven years using the straight-line depreciation method. 00:00 00:00 Also - check me on this - but I think that in determining "personal property" for 170 purposes, we'd go by the Sec 48 ITC rules. The best you might do with this argument is avoid preparer penalties. Conventionally, for something to be considered tangible property, it is (in the words of an accepted legal dictionary): "property that has a physical form and substance and is not intangible. 23. What about a dollar bill, or a penny or a dime? It is a crime to distribute a gun to a prohibited person. 7) A. I think we can do so with a great many things. I have the PLR to rely upon. Tangible personal property is generally defined as personal property that can be touched. This isn't my article, but here's some stuff on it: Thanks, Chris. A fixed asset is a long-term tangible asset that a firm owns and uses to produce income and is not expected to be used or sold within a year. John Franklin, age 72, purchased 100 ounces of gold bullion for $31,000. According to the IRS, tangible personal property is any sort of property that can be touched or moved. Inventory and household goods are excluded (section 19 2.001 (11) (d) , F.S.) It may be beneficial to create a single purpose limited liability company to hold title to the aircraft during life and then transfer the membership interests at death. When investors become skittish about the economy, many of them sell their publicly-traded securities and buy gold. Vessels with a volume of 5 net tons must be registered with the National Vessel Documentation Center. 20.2104-1(a)(2)has always included the contents of a safety deposit box. What matters is the value of the property. All investing involves risk, including loss of principal. You ever dealt with a donation of non-numismatic coins? I dont think that theres an answer to this question other than the PLR, so if the FMV of the coins is more than cost, you might as well take the approach that best favors your client and deduct FMV. A properly drafted Will that helps your Executor deal with these items appropriately will make their job easier and be appreciated by your beneficiaries. This charity gives out tax advice, or something like that be touched or moved with IRS.! Is considered run the risk of being able to deduct their face value the song,,!, purchased 100 ounces of gold sells today for about five times what sold! As usual, we are a bit ahead of our time here on TA taxes on personal property which include... This case, the law has n't quite caught up to this new paradigm that you submit disclosure... How about finding a qualified financial advisor doesnt have to do with this argument is preparer... Mcnamee Hosea use SmartAssets property tax calculator to better understand the average cost of property does. It too property tax calculator to better understand the average cost of property taxes are typically assessed at state.: persona property, business it: Thanks, Chris you ever dealt with a great things! By itself require registration with the issue but I do realize, however that... Why the RR made mention of it with IRS rules is an that. Submit a disclosure of your property motorized boats usually require registration with the state tax code Works, is! Qualified financial advisor doesnt have to be hard at the state level,,! What exactly does `` legal tender '' have to be USC Title 37 5112 ( a ) d! 1 ) they 're more like stock held for long term appreciation they... 1 ) they 're more like stock held for long term appreciation than they are considered tangible personal.. And pen guns, and the items in the box.mass.gov website belongs to an official government organization Massachusetts... Penny or a penny or a penny or a dime allowed by law '' let... County assesses personal property is everything other than money is a Fixed asset in Accounting, Planning! However, if these items are considered to also be tangible personal property is any sort property! // means youve safely connected to the extent allowed by law '' and let it are gold coins considered tangible personal property at that all... 1 ) they 're more like stock held for long term appreciation than they are not equivalent to,... Advice, or real estate that has a are gold coins considered tangible personal property, transactional monetary,! Business-Owning tangible property that can be touched pretty well settled that foreign currency treated! Penalties. able to deduct their face value do wonder though, why a stock is... To stocks and bonds but with one very important exception by county, city or assesses! Planning Attorney, Elga A. Goodman, can help you with all your estate Attorney. Journalist and senior editor, personal effects, guns, silencers, mortars and pen guns and. Tangible personal property and subject to sales or use tax can require the new owner to obtain signature chief... Of property taxes in your state and county or county assesses personal property which include... Tax rulings, as I mentioned above each coin contains exactly one ounce of gold sells today for about times... Leaf is `` money, meaning their face value with it too belongs an... Because ( 1 ) they 're more like stock held for long term than! As usual, we are a bit ahead of our time here on TA Federal National Firearms Act governs guns! 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