They definitely don't have a brain. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Why waste hot water? No. LARRY UBELL: Or it's just the vibration of the pipe that's making it go toward it. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. They can adapt in an overwhelming number of ways to different conditions, different environments, different stressors, and different ecological pressures. Thud. No. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. You're doing the -- like, okay first it was the roots under the ground all connected into a whole hive thing. ROBERT: That is correct. ROBERT: Now, you might think that the plant sends out roots in every direction. It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. And I do that in my brain. Me first. And then JENNIFER FRAZER: They secrete acid. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. Sorry! Well, it depends on who you ask. I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. He was a, not a wiener dog. What is it? Never mind. Picasso! I mean, you're out there in the forest and you see all these trees, and you think they're individuals just like animals, right? In this case, a little blue LED light. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. SUZANNE SIMARD: He was a, not a wiener dog. Huh. So he brought them some meat. ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. Well, it depends on who you ask. They run out of energy. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. ROBERT: Connecting your house to the main city water line that's in the middle of the street. Can the tree feel you ripping the roots out like that? Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. Like, the tree was, like, already doing that stuff by itself, but it's the fungus that's doing that stuff? Well, 25 percent of it ended up in the tree. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. And when you measure them, like one study we saw found up to seven miles of this little threading What is this thing? AATISH BHATIA: All right. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. Both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction, and the pea plant leans toward them. So they figured out who paid for the murder. Nothing delicious at all. Well, maybe. So just give me some birds. They still remembered. JAD: So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? LARRY UBELL: You got somewhere to go? ROBERT: I have even -- I can go better than even that. ROBERT: So you think that that this -- you think this is a hubris corrector? SUZANNE SIMARD: And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. JENNIFER FRAZER: Anyone who's ever had a plant in a window knows that. Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. Robert, I have -- you know what? Is that what -- is that what this? ROBERT: So the roots can go either left or to the right. And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. Fan, light, lean. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. It's okay. Well, people have been measuring this in different forests and ecosystems around the world, and the estimate is anywhere from 20 to 80 percent will go into the ground. And again. We've all seen houseplants do that, right? And then someone has to count. Pulled out a is that a root of some sort? And we dropped it once and twice. To remember? JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. I'll put it down in my fungi. JAD: What exchange would that be, Robert? There's this whole other world right beneath my feet. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? ROBERT: But Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of ROBERT: What if? Yeah, I know. Or SUZANNE SIMARD: No. Is that what -- is that what this? I mean, couldn't it just be like that? So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. Now the plants if they were truly dumb they'd go 50/50. Are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. Ring, meat, eat. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. MONICA GAGLIANO: It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. JENNIFER FRAZER: Apparently she built some sort of apparatus. It just kept curling. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. MONICA GAGLIANO: Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. Thud. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". To remember? And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. What happened to you didn't happen to us. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. Why is this network even there? Just a boring set of twigs. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. He'd fallen in. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, wedig into the work of evolutionaryecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns ourbrain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. ALVIN UBELL: The glass is not broken. You got somewhere to go? ROBERT: She's a forestry professor at the University of British Columbia. I was like, "Oh, my God! ROBERT: To try to calculate how much springtail nitrogen is traveling back to the tree. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. But it didn't happen. That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. She's working in the timber industry at the time. So here's what she did. When they did this, they saw that a lot of the springtails that had the tubes inside them were still alive. So what does the tree do? Fan, light, lean. So you think that that this -- you think this is a hubris corrector? ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: And I am a science writer. Oh. They need light to grow. So she decided to conduct her experiment. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. ROBERT: And that's just the beginning. SUZANNE SIMARD: Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. ROBERT: What kind of creature is this thing? ROBERT: Eventually, she came back after ROBERT: And they still remembered. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. Just the sound of it? This peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. JAD: Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. ROBERT: I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. And then someone has to count. Let him talk. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. And then I would cover them in plastic bags. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? MONICA GAGLIANO: Pretty much like the concept of Pavlov with his dog applied. And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? I mean again, it's a tree. LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. ROBERT: And it's in that little space between them that they make the exchange. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. Plants are really underrated. ], With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. Like, would they figure it out faster this time? But Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of What if? Super interesting how alive our plants really are! ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. Her use of metaphor. Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. 37:51. And lignin is full of nitrogen, but also compounds like nitrogen is important in DNA, right? And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. And it can reach these little packets of minerals and mine them. This is the plant and pipe mystery. ], Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick ], Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty ], Matt Kielly. ROBERT: You don't know what your dog was? This is the plant and pipe mystery. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. No. This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? I don't really need it all right now. Take it. I mean, Jigs was part of the family. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. Okay. No question there. ], Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yes, in a lot of cases it is the fungus. This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. And I do that in my brain. So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. But let me just -- let me give it a try. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? Yeah, plants really like light, you know? So they figured out who paid for the murder. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in SUZANNE SIMARD: And toilet paper. Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. Why waste hot water? Tagged #science #technology #philosophy #education #radiolab. But we are in the home inspection business. My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" Because I have an appointment. One of the roots just happens to bump into a water pipe and says -- sends a signal to all the others, "Come over here. ROBERT: So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. ROBERT: Huh. ], Test the outer edges of what you think you know. Thud. The fungi needs sugar to build their bodies, the same way that we use our food to build our bodies. JAD: That is cool. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? Or even learn? It's time -- time for us to go and lie down on the soft forest floor. JAD: Wait. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty ], [ALVIN UBELL: Matt Kielly. They're all out in the forest. LARRY UBELL: Or it's just the vibration of the pipe that's making it go toward it. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. Well, it depends on who you ask. Wait a second. There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. It was a simple little experiment. Not really. Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. They shade each other. No, I actually, like even this morning it's already like poof! So just give me some birds. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. SUZANNE SIMARD: Jigs had provided this incredible window for me, you know, in this digging escapade to see how many different colors they were, how many different shapes there were, that they were so intertwined. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. That is definitely cool. And I've been in the construction industry ever since I'm about 16 years old. ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. On the fifth day, they take a look and discover most of the roots, a majority of the roots were heading toward the sound of water. ROBERT: After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. ], [LARRY UBELL: Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler. Or No. Maybe just a tenth the width of your eyelash. ROBERT: I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. JENNIFER FRAZER: The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. Fan first, light after. My name is Monica Gagliano. There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. It's okay, puppy. MONICA GAGLIANO: Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. Would you say that the plant is seeing the sun? All right, that's it, I think. Into which she put these sensitive plants. And what we found was that the trees that were the biggest and the oldest were the most highly connected. It's okay. [laughs]. No. And again. And Basically expanding it from a kind of a column of a pit to something that's -- we could actually grab onto his front legs and pull him out. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. They're called feeder roots. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. ROBERT: What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? ROBERT: Now the plants if they were truly dumb, they'd go 50/50. SUZANNE SIMARD: Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. They learned something. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just gonna run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? ], [ROY HALLING: Jamie York is our Senior Producer. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. That was my reaction. I'm 84. I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. ROBERT: Okay. ROBERT: They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. Smarty Plants. And look, and beyond that there are forests, there are trees that the scientists have found where up to 75 percent of the nitrogen in the tree turns out to be fish food. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. ROBERT: So it's not that it couldn't fold up, it's just that during the dropping, it learned that it didn't need to. ROBERT: Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. So it's predicting something to arrive. The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. Nothing delicious at all.". Are you, like, aggressively looking around for -- like, do you wake up in the morning saying, "Now what can I get a plant to do that reminds me of my dog, or reminds me of a bear, or reminds me of a bee?". This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. I mean, I -- it's a kind of Romanticism, I think. Pretty much like the concept of Pavlov with his dog applied. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. And so I was really excited. Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. ROBERT: So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. Liquid rocks. Now, it turns out that they're networked, and together they're capable of doing things, of behaviors, forestrial behaviors, that are deeply new. I don't know where you were that day. It spits out the O2. This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? Yes, because she knew that scientists had proposed years before, that maybe there's an underground economy that exists among trees that we can't see. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. No. He's on the right track. They secrete acid. Image credits: Photo Credit: Flickred! I mean, you've heard that. ROBERT: And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. I mean, I think there's something to that. They somehow have a dye, and don't ask me how they know this or how they figured it out, but they have a little stain that they can put on the springtails to tell if they're alive or dead. We dropped. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. It should have some. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. I don't really need it all right now. The glass is not broken. Because I have an appointment. Enough of that! ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. They still remembered. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: This is Jennifer Frazer, and I'm a freelance science writer and blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. And now, if you fast-forward roughly 30 years, she then makes a discovery that I find kind of amazing. Just a boring set of twigs. It's condensation. SUZANNE SIMARD: They start producing chemicals that taste really bad. MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. They still did not close when she dropped them. And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. And does it change my place in the world? Yeah, it might run out of fuel. And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. ANNIE: Yeah. They learned something. Ring, meat, eat. JAD: From just bears throwing fish on the ground? Hobbled, really. They shade each other out. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. The bell, the meat and the salivation. Like, why would the trees need a freeway system underneath the ground to connect? That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. ROBERT: And this? The Douglas fir became diseased and -- and died. 2016. I don't know. And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. One tree goes "Uh-oh." Charts. Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? LARRY UBELL: It's not leaking. ROBERT: And when you look at the map, what you see are circles sprouting lines and then connecting to other circles also sprouting lines. So there is some water outside of the pipe. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? ROBERT: So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. SUZANNE SIMARD: Potassium and calcium and ROBERT: Like, can a tree stand up straight without minerals? I found a little water! Handheld? And these acids come out and they start to dissolve the rocks. Again. Like what she saw in the outhouse? ROBERT: Special thanks to Dr. Teresa Ryan of the University of British Columbia, Faculty of Forestry, to our intern Stephanie Tam, to Roy Halling and the Bronx Botanical Garden, and to Stephenson Swanson there. , Newfoundland, Canada: Connecting your house to the main city water line 's. 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